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Human Rights Act

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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 15:34 Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
Typically, the Daily Fail thread was full before Paul got round to answering my question about the use of the Act to ensure that public bodies made appropriate social care and other provision.
Perhaps Paul and any other rights-deniers would like to tell us whether he thinks such use is wrong and how he would propose to enable people to stop, for example, social services departments to stop splitting up elderly couples if the HRA was abolished?
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 16:19 'ere be monsters wrote:
I haven't read all that thread, but, why should we need a HRA to cover those eventualities. It should be obvious that elderly couples should not be split up. Thing is some of the Act is good some of it is feckin' ridiculous i.e. not being able to deport a murderer because he's become so attached to his cat, so perhaps the whole thing needs binning and starting again.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 16:35 bastian wrote:
ah but the tories are talking about scrapping it,not changing it...it is to their advantage to scrap it and Europe to,it's an ideology thing. Without the HRA they will be free to work you into thr ground for peanuts and sack you for no good reason.Several times they have been made to backpeddle on one of their reforms because of a European HR issue there is nothing they would love more than to pull out of the whole shabang.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 16:36 Clifford wrote:
'ere be monsters wrote: 'I haven't read all that thread, but, why should we need a HRA to cover those eventualities. It should be obvious that elderly couples should not be split up.'

Because, monsters, if the action is to be challenged it has to be on a legal basis, not on the grounds that 'it should be obvious'. I'm fascinated at the sheep lining up to say, 'No, we don't need a Human Rights Act to challenge what the government does, we're sure the government only has our interests at heart'.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 16:51 Paul Newman wrote:
Desirable outcomes and inalienable Human Rights are not the same thing ANCT. For example take the "Right to family life" which I assume was invoked .Let us say that this 'right', in terms of care, adds costs which must be paid for by removing resources either from tax payers or other recipients of state assistance. These difficult choices ,all of which may involve competing needs ( rights if your prefer) are not for a foreign court to decide for us.
Here is the HRA in action ,I take it you will be cheering for Mr. Hirst

Check it out here »
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 17:13 Paul Newman wrote:
Oh .. the cart has been located and it did indeed play a key role ina deportation case where article 8 was invoked . The judge said the owenship of a cat named Maya reinforced the quality of family life . A subsequent appeal altered the grounds but Mz. May was right essentially and the Guardian was wrong .Good old Mail eh,breaking the news , embarrassing the elite, that what I call Press Freedom, which, incidentally, is under attack by the use of the HRA to import a faux right to privacy which has not been legislated for .Puurrrrrrrrrrr...
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 17:58 Clifford wrote:
Tell us a bit more about the suggested 'Bill of Rights' Paul. I have to say it's not something I'd object to, provided it did genuinely protect our rights against overweening government.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 18:13 Roger wrote:
What are Human Rights? Can somebody name them?
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 18:18 Clifford wrote:
Your human rights are:
the right to life
freedom from torture and degrading treatment
freedom from slavery and forced labour
the right to liberty
the right to a fair trial
the right not to be punished for something that wasn't a crime when you did it
the right to respect for private and family life
freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and freedom to express your beliefs
freedom of expression
freedom of assembly and association
the right to marry and to start a family
the right not to be discriminated against in respect of these rights and freedoms
the right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
the right to an education
the right to participate in free elections
the right not to be subjected to the death penalty
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 18:41 Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
And apart from the hanging and flogging brigade, I can't see anything in there that could be considered objectionable by anyone.
The right to respect for family life is the one that is commonly used in social care and housing cases. It might be obvious that a couple should not be split up, but this was common practice for many years where one party in a couple needed a much higher level of support than the other, and therefore had to accommodated in a more expensive residential care home. This almost happened to the parents of a friend of mine in about 2003, luckily just after an ECHR ruling in another case, and she was able to cite the judgment and get them to change their minds.
Paul has raised the conflicting demands of service provision and managing resources, way back inthe 1990's, in case that has become known as the Hereford & Worcester case, the High Court held that lack of resources must not be a factor in determining whether or not someone receives the care they need.
If we need an HRA to stop councils from splitting up families, which we palinly do, then we should have one imo.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 19:33 Southover Queen wrote:
"I can't see anything in there that could be considered objectionable by anyone." Neither can I, ACT. Which is why I was nagging (hopelessly, I knew) Paul to tell us which of those he'd like to see dumped.

I see that Paul is still insisting that the cat example stands. It does not. The cat was part of a big bundle of evidence which was together offered to the court in order to show that this man had a long term relationship and had established a stable home which included a cat. Plus, of course, it was all rejected on appeal, which is exactly as it should be.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 19:35 Clifford wrote:
You're right, of course, ACT. These are rights are that no-one could reasonably object to (apart - as you say - from the capital punishment question, which is always open to debate). It does make you wonder why the Tories have such an objection to them. What are they planning that would undermine rights?
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 19:43 Roger wrote:
They seem very reasonable. The trouble is, they often get misquoted.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 20:17 jrsussex wrote:
We do need a HRA and , as Clifford says, it has to be on the Statute Book to have any impact. But nobody can disagree that the current Act is abused, not only by illegal immigrants avoiding departation but also UK nationals breaking the law and/or behaving badly. The father released from prison because his children missed him comes to mind. The current Act needs to be re-visited and loop-holes closed and improve it. It is not unusual for an Act, once it has "settled in", to be re-visited due to loop-holes having been exposed.
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On Thu 6 Oct 2011 at: 23:19 Clifford wrote:
There's always room for interpretation over legislation, that's what judges do for a living. And I agree jrussex that, on the face of it, the interpretation made by the court in the case you mention was bonkers.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 08:40 Roger wrote:
Are those rights listed above actually enshrined in Law? I have found similar lists but none say they are the law.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 09:19 Paul newman wrote:
Southover Queen- You seem to be suggesting that those who oppose the imposition of Strasbourg law, do so in order to usher in a new age of murder torture arbitrary imprisonment and groundless prejudice.Quite laughable, and it really worries me that people like you, whose world view come exclusively from the Guardian and BBC, think this is reality.
Law abiding subjects of her majesty had all these "rights". Criminals , terrorists ,illegal immigrants , were subject to differentiated treatment. When our legal dispensation was changed for their benefit by Europe we were not asked .Apply yourself to the issue not the fantasy.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 09:30 Kevsy wrote:
Does the individual occasional questionable interpretation of something make it ripe for dumping? I'm sure if one tries hard enough one may find the odd strange interpretation of the laws of this Island. But other than constant reform I don't hear cries for it being ditched in favour of a different approach, sharia or martial law anyone?
Once again, a clear case of a questionable ideology getting in the way of common sense.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 09:39 Paul newman wrote:
Here are some Human Rights Questions
1 Is the right for a murderer to retain rights to family life and the vote he has removed from his victim and their family ( Hirst claims exactly that)
2 Did the US violate the human rights of the Japanese for the period of martial law after the war ? What would you suggest at then time ?
3 In your view should Islam and many more , in its entirety, be hauled up in front of a world human rights court for its unequal treatment of women. ( Is such a global court a good thing ?)..
4 Should it be illegal for any society to form itself so collectively as to contravene the human right to property ?
5 Were the human rights of eighteen year olds, to vote violated consistently prior to the reduction of the age from 21
6 If a child actually burns its school down are we obliged to rebuild it and let him back in to burn it again and so on ad infinitum.( Not so far from a real case)..even if it meant other schools were not built
and so on.....
7 Do you feel that a referendum on a Common Market imparts legitimacy to a legal system consistently opposed by the majority and inflicted only by the EU via its associated institutions ?
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 09:42 Paul newman wrote:
But other than constant reform I don't hear cries for it being ditched in favour of a different approach, sharia or martial law anyone?
But that is precisely what we have done . Dumped the centuries old tradition of common law with its intricate relationship with life and replaced with a Liberal Sharia edict which does not work,is plainly unjust
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 11:16 kevsy wrote:
Because we can't be trusted to uphold peoples basic human rights. See our involvement in guantanamo bay and our beloved army using torture etc on individual not convicted of anything. Clearly years of common law has installed in us an arogance that needed to be checked.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 12:29 Paul Newman wrote:
Is that right Kevsy ? Extraordinary Rendition is not in any way covered under the Euro diktat but might be if British public opinion were galvanised and we had legislation with a democratic underpinning . It actually prevents action on this subject.
Wrong twice ..want another go ?
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 12:36 Clifford wrote:
Roger - You keep asking questions about the Human Rights Act that you could easily find the answer to. I assume you're sitting at a computer. Why not google 'Human Rights Act 1998'? If you do you'll find something like:

www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_4002951
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 12:52 'ere be monsters wrote:
Clifford, if you consider me to be a sheep, where or when did I write 'No, we don't need a Human Rights Act to challenge what the government does, we're sure the government only has our interests at heart'.?
Asking why we should need a HRA to cover such eventualities as separating elderly couples in their dotage was a criticism of our society. Are you, as others, reading into posts what you would like to hear as opposed to what is being said?
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 14:51 Roger wrote:
Thank you Clifford. I have now read the Human Rights Act 1998. It includes a schedule of Articles which equate to the list in your earlier post. Thankfully however, the Articles include additional text that puts each of them in context and limits (in some cases) their application.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 16:20 kevsy wrote:
I know I'm going to regret doing this as I have told myself many times to leave well alone as far as you are concerned, but here goes. My point is that our if as a state we can't provide a governence framework that stops our army abusing basic human rights, we shouldnt trust our government to develop one for our citizens. Instead we need to rely on conventions signed across country borders to keep us in check, frankly for me it doesnt matter whether it is Europe, UN or anything else. The more that sign up the better.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 16:29 Clifford wrote:
'ere be monsters, I'm not sure I thought you were a sheep and if I gave that impression, apologies. I do, however, think that the people lining up to get rid of the Act (most of whom seem to know nothing about what it actually contains) are sheep. 'Human rights' have taken over from 'health and safety', which took over from 'political correctness' as a slogan for the moronic.
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On Fri 7 Oct 2011 at: 16:54 Paul Newman wrote:
Sorry if I have sounded pompous Kevsy,I get such a lot of abuse it gets to the point of getting your retaliation in first.I think you have moved onto a rather different subject , in some form you are right of course.
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On Sat 8 Oct 2011 at: 03:34 Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
Paul, we didn't have "all these rights" before. If we had, no-one would be complaining about the HRA because it wouldn't have changed anything.
And the system of common law is deeply flawed. I have seen lawyers arguing in court whether precedent A or precedent B applies in a case, because there has never been a precedent set in a case identical to the one being heard. It also means that aberrant decisions be the occasional maverick judge can become law vby default unless overturned on appeal.
There are very few democracies that don't have a written constitutionor bill of rights that can be relied upon to establish certain basic principles, and it means that in some cases, especially when it comes to things like decisions by public bodies, an indivual's only recourse is to complex and costly judicial review.
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On Sun 9 Oct 2011 at: 07:42 'ere be monsters wrote:
It's the Yanks fault apparently. All these rights are already in our laws, they came up with the idea of making a list of them in their "Bill of Rights" and some Eurocrat thought that was a good idea.
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On Sun 9 Oct 2011 at: 17:21 Clifford wrote:
'ere be monsters - hard to know where to start with that. US Bill of Rights, 1791. European Convention on Human Rights, 1953, drafted by British MP and lawyer Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe. Incorporated into British law under the Human Rights Act, 1999. Before then British citizens had to go to the European Court of Human Rights (nothing to do with the European Union) to assert their case.
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On Sun 9 Oct 2011 at: 17:58 bastian wrote:
WW2 was the reason for the HRA,Europe set a new standard,let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
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On Sun 9 Oct 2011 at: 18:10 bastian wrote:
read the bill of rights sometime, bits of it are mad ans leave no room for the indiginous population.
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On Mon 10 Oct 2011 at: 14:23 Clifford wrote:
Where's the bit about 'indigenous population' bastian. By the way, who could disagree with Amendment II 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed'?
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On Mon 10 Oct 2011 at: 15:51 bastian wrote:
I mean, the whole Bill of rights does not include the indiginous population at all.
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On Mon 10 Oct 2011 at: 18:53 Clifford wrote:
Sorry, misunderstood. And their Constitution said slaves were two thirds of a person. Home of the brave and the land of the free.
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On Tue 11 Oct 2011 at: 09:03 'ere be monsters wrote:
Cliffy, you're right, Yanks started it, finished up by the Eurocrats. I'm sure someone else said that.

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