Lewes Forum thread

Well Well Well. Squeaky Clean Normans at it as well. Must have been an OVERSIGHT. 37!!!!!!!!! TIMES. Just like all the rest BUT 37 times Normans the BEST.

BBC investigation has revealed that more than 20 MPs have breached rules in relation to registering and declaring overseas trips paid for by foreign governments.
The trips taken by Norman Baker, his relevant parliamentary activities and his reply to the BBC are below.
India/Tibet
Liberal Democrat MP for Lewes Norman Baker visited India, at the expense of the Tibet Society of the UK, in October 2007.
He again visited India in September 2008 to visit the Tibetan government-in-exile, which met his costs along with the Tibet Society.
Following these visits Mr Baker asked the following 21 questions relating to Tibet, along with two supplementary questions, without declaring an interest: 156141, 159320, 168233, 175894 with supplementary, 186588 with a supplementary, 198695, 202423, 210002, 220269 to 220271, 220371, 220372, 226717, 237783, 243953 to 243956, 249326 and 259345.
PARLIAMENTARY QUESTIONS

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Enter relevant numbers in "Parliamentary Question number" box
Parliamentary Question number facility

On 1 April 2008, Mr Baker secured a debate on Tibet. Records of the Summary Agenda, the Weekly Information Bulletin and the Order of Business indicate that he did not declare an interest. Whenever an interest is declared, the symbol "[R]" appears on the relevant notice or order papers.
Neither did Mr Baker declare an interest during the debate itself, although he did mention a recent visit.
Mr Baker also tabled the following early day motions relating to Tibet without declaring an interest:
1. 'DETENTION AND CONVICTION OF RONGYAL ADAK' / 13.11.2007 / EDM 216
2. 'IMPRISONMENT OF RUNGYEE ADAK IN TIBET' / 21.11.2007 / EDM 347
3. 'VISIT OF THE DALAI LAMA' / 20.02.2008 / EDM 984
4. 'BEHAVIOUR OF CHINESE FORCES IN TIBET' / 17.03.2008 / EDM 1201
5. 'HUMAN RIGHTS AND TIBET' / 28.04.2008 / EDM 1444
6. 'PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING WITH THE DALAI LAMA' / 14.05.2008 / EDM 1569
7. '50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE TIBETAN NATIONAL UPRISING' / 04.03.2009 / EDM 978
8. 'POLITICAL SITUATION IN TIBET' / 10.03.2009 / EDM 1034
In addition, Mr Baker signed the following early day motions relating to Tibet without declaring an interest:
9. 'DEATH PENALTY IN TIBET' / 28.04.2009 / EDM 1373
10. 'MEDIA FREEDOMS IN CHINA' / 05.12.2007 / EDM 476
11. 'HUMANITARIAN SUFFERING IN TIBET' / 22.04.2008 / EDM 1387
12. 'TIBET AND ASSURANCES FROM THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT' / 22.10.2008 / EDM 2331
13. 'VENERABLE PALDEN GYATSO AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN TIBET' / 05.03.2009 / EDM 998
Reply
In response, Mr Baker told the BBC: "I have had a long-standing interest in Tibet, preceding by many years the two visits to which you refer, and hold positions as vice-chair of the All-Party Tibet Group and President of the Tibet Society.
DECLARING FOREIGN TRIPS

Any MP who has an overseas trip paid for by a foreign government must register it within four weeks
They must declare a financial interest if it "might reasonably be thought by others to influence the speech, representation or communication in question"
This includes when tabling questions, motions, bills or amendments, and when speaking out during Commons proceedings
Members may not, for example, call for increased UK financial assistance to the government which provided the hospitality
Q&A - MPs' foreign trips rules

"As these positions are unpaid, of course no declaration has been needed, though I have publicly referred to both positions on many occasions.
"In respect of the two visits to India, such visits have to be registered if the cost met from an external body constitutes more than 1% of salary.
"In fact, it was not clear in either case that this threshold had been breached, but I thought it right to declare these visits just in case.
"That notwithstanding, having decided that I would register these visits, I should have then declared a relevant interest in respect of the parliamentary activities you list.
"It is an unintended oversight that I did not, and I am grateful to you for drawing this to my attention."

It'll be interesting to see how much mileage Sugarman's people try to get from this. If I've read this right, Baker went to Tibet twice, declared that the trips were paid for by a foreign government, but then failed to declare the trips a second time for each of the 37 questions or motions he tabled on the subject of human rights abuses in Tibet that he presumably went there to investigate. Doesn't have quite the same dodgy sound to it as declaring moat cleaning on expenses and the like. Given he was already interested in Tibet, is anyone suggesting his opposition to human rights abuses there has been bought rather than being genuinely held? Certainly looks like it really was an oversight. Or at least, if he was trying to cover anything up, voluntarily declaring the trips in the first place probably wasn't the best way to do it!

I don't think Norman is perfect (certainly not when it comes to challenging our incompetant rotten Council) but there is a difference between being imperfect and 'not being squeaky clean"

I would have been suprised if Norman had never made a mistake. However taking an interest in the plight of an oppressed overseas people is a bit diffrent than taking a bung from a multinational or getting the tax payer to pay for your moat to be cleaned. Your going to have to try harder than this to discredit Norman!

The pro Baker people will be out in force denying any wrong doing but the bottom line is that once again an MP has been caught out in breaking the rules. Norman Baker MP already has a cloud over him with regards his office use, the associated costs and now this. Many people attempt to work in other countries to protect their citizens against abuse but they are completely honest about what they are doing. In the main they are certainly not have their trips funded, they have to raise the costs through charitable fund raising.
What this proves, in my opinion, is that the whole procedure of the rule book in Parliament requires ripping up and then instigate a "root and branch" investigation to stop these practices once and for all.
MP's perform a job, they should, by and large, work under the same standards as all other workkers. They should not enjoy special privileges at the taxpayers expense.

I can't stand the bloke for various reasons, but I can't see this as anything other than an oversight. He declared his freebies so he hasn't tried to conceal them, just hasn't mentioned them as often as he should have. Just another sign of his incompetence nothing else.

Blimey, this is such a tiny technicality. He declared the trips were paid for, but didn't mention it every single time he askjed a question. They should look to the beam in their own eyes before trying to use the mote in Norman's!
It's hardly a £400 duck house, is it?
Fair play to Norman for his work on the Tibet issue, too. He's been involved the Tibet campaign for at least 20 years.

I think this is a case where a simple apology from Mr Baker to his constituents would be enough. It's hardly in the Hoon-Byers-Hewitt-Moran league, is it?

TBF When I went to school over ten years ago now I remember Norman Baker coming in and talking about Tibet - so it was an issue that has always been of interest to him since he has started a political career.
As someone else stated not quite the same as asking questions for a multinational. Then theres a fact that he declared the expense.
He will probably get criticised, but it only seems a technical oversight.

JRSussex, I assume you and Sugarman will now press Cameron to demand that Liam Fox, Alan Duncan, David Amess, David Burrowes, Graham Brady, Crispin Blunt, Mike Penning, Andrew Rosindell, Richard Spring, and Theresa Villiers from the Conservative Party resign their seats for committing the same offence?

To be fair, there's a serious reason for this rule and while in this case we have evidence that Baker was already passionate about human rights in Tibet, and I believe Fox's failure to declare a Sri Lankan interest was just an oversight as well (much as I loathe the man) for similar reasons, some of the others, though, do look suspicious (especially the Maldives trips). It's right that MPs are being warned this rule needs to be taken more seriously, and Baker deserves a rap on the knuckles for this, no matter how innocent the mistake.

JR Norman certainly does not have a 'cloud over him' regarding his office use, you have just created an imaginary one.
The only cloud I can see is his head in the sand attitude towards his colleagues activities in LDC.
Jason Sugarman on the other hand has a giant black thundercloud over his head called 'I used to write on the Lewes Forum, but can't cope when it is challenged by about 7 Forum contributers"
How then could he cope with the big boys and girls at the big school in Westinster?

1) slight stumble over cerb stone 2) left volly bit tipsy 3) twig in the road 4) fell over a dog turd 5) ....... Im sure we can continue this in more detail

Thanks, Geoff, that really made me chuckle!

WTF is Norm playing at. I thought he was elected to represent Lewes, not Tibet. I'm not being funny but f *ck Tibet, we have our own problems here to deal with after all we pay his wages not some goat herder in a tent!

Norman should know better than to make silly mistakes like this. Nice one Prick, good to know compassion for people worse off than us is not dead.

yes but what relevance are the Tibet trips to his role as representative of the Lewes Ward?! There really going to help with the ongoing parking situation thats for sure, theirs f *ck all cars in tibet!

Norman (and Jason if he's elected) are there to represent us on the national stage, passing laws, voting on the budget, supporting the government or holding it to account. He's also there to speak up for Lewes on flood defences etc. Local councillors are paid to deal with specifically local issues. But, I wasn't aware that there's a parking problem in Tibet.

I agree that Tibet has nothing to do with UK or constituency politics, however, IMO there is something a bit noble about taking interest in the light of others regardless of whether it's Tibet, HIV/Aids, starvation in Africa etc. NB has been interested in Tibet for a long time and I don't see why his interest should impinge on his ability to do his constituency work - from what I can see it hasn't. Most MPs have some overseas interests - at least he's not lining his pockets schmoozing big business.

If our MPs don't take an informed interest in foreign affairs it's going to be a bit difficult when they have to debate and vote on these issues; the same goes for economic affairs. It's just as well some of the 'little Lewes' people commenting on here haven't got any political ambitions. I suppose we have to blame the schools for this narrow view.

Independany Thinker. Your logic escapes me, because I critisize MB you believe that makes me a JS supporter. I never suggested that NB shoulkd resign, that comes from you. I agree with you, I think, in that yes all offenders should be reprimanded whatever their party. NB being passionate about Tibet is no excuse whatsoever for taking funded holidays to be followed up by pleading a case for that country in the British Parliament. If you believe it does then so be it, but by condoning such behaviour it is very clear where it will lead. Every British MP taking sponsored holidays year on year. I believe it wrong and that it should be stopped now that it has come to light.
GEOFF - There is a cloud over the office of NB. Study the facts and it is there to be seen. You also in defending NB assume that those commenting on matters to do with NB must be JS supporters, a ridiculous assumption.

JR, so you joined into a political thread started to attack Baker, quoting standard Tory activist talking points, 6 weeks before an election in a town where the only rival to Baker is Sugarman, but I'm being illogical to think that perhaps you want Sugarman to win. Hmmm....

Yes, we do agree it's a good rule to have, and MPs should be reminded they need to take it seriously as it could lead to foreign nationals buying political influence. That clearly hasn't happened here, though (or in Liam Fox's case), as Baker clearly held his views before the trip happened, and there's no hint of any personal financial gain, so I can't see it being a winning election issue, but by all means you can keep plugging away at it and see what happens. You never know.

Some very odd things being said about Tibet here. Tibet - some of you don't seem to know - is occupied by China and has a government in exile in India. Baker has been visiting that. Though I'm no LibDem I like the idea of my MP taking an interest in attempts by an occupied country to regain its liberty.

For once Sherlock I agree with the thrust of your posts in this thread. The comments of Prick Stain among others are myopic beyond belief.

so despite starting as a knock Norman thread exactly the opposite seems to be the case - would prefer money spent on sussex issues but hey-ho we need to speak up for the underdog and Norman seems to be genuinely concerned for things Tibetan - Have said it before and still feel the same - he is a great MP in a field of skivving, money-grabbing, self-righteous, lazy, two-faced, deceiptful [etc etc adinfinitum - Ed.] honourable gentleman (and ladies)

A Lib Dem, being a bit naughty, don't be so silly, they are like Mary Poppins, perfect in every way. Got to go my lentils are boiling over.

Oh Mungo my sides are bursting. 'Lentils'! You are a wit. Tell me, you must be professional comic.

The last two governments (Lab and Tory) convinced me that voting was a waste of time. But Norm has defeated my disillusionment. I'm going to vote Lib Dem.

What a guy.

BAKER OUT!

The Tories should try to find a candidate called Butcher - there'd then be a real choice between Baker and Butcher.

well 'Jason' you would think that regular Forum contributor Jason Sugarman might like to contribute something to this, given that he thinks Norman is inolved in an office rent scam, and is generally rubbish. this should be like manna from heaven. So, over to you Mr Sugarman....... (cue deafening silence)

Sherlock, can I offer myself for election as well?

Thank you Mr Candlestick-Maker, the ballot paper is now complete.

Lentils- I am sure that Mungo is Asian, and is just telling us he is making a Dhal. ..Possibly. No one these days could seriously think lentils were synonymous with beardy-wierdyness...could they?

No need - Koundarjian is Armenian for wick-dipper, which is close enough.

The day after Mr Baker was quick to vow that he would report Mr Stephen Byers MP to the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner concerning the allegations that he was one of 3 ex Government Ministers who tried to sell influence for cash, Mr Baker has been caught out himself. 'Holier Than Thou' Baker has really made a fool of himself by 'accidently' forgetting on 37 occasions to declare his paid for foreign trips. His oversight was that he failed to declare a financial interest if it 'might reasonably be thought by others to influence the speech, representation or communication in question'. This includes when tabling questions, motions, bills or amendments and when speaking during Commons proceedings. This is where his faults lie and are quite inexcusable.
I have often thought that Mr Baker breached rules before because, not so long ago, he launched an avalanche of Written Questions to Government Ministers concerning the circumstances surrounding the death of Dr David Kelly. Should Mr Baker have not declared a financial interest when he posed these questions because there must have been no doubt, at the time, that he was gathering research material (at the expense of the Taxpayer) for the book he was planning to write about Dr Kelly which was certainly for his personal substantial reward and not for charity?

'certainly for his personal substantial reward and not for charity' what is your certainty based on?

Annette Curtin-Twitcher says that this was only a tiny 'technical' breach of the rules on Norman's part.
What like many of the other MP's who had their expenses claims approved only to find they were then subsequently accused of being dishonest by people like Norman Baker - that sort of technicality do you mean?
I also notice that the incredibly biased Viva Lewes has also found him innocent - no surprise there either.

Viva Islington is written by Lib Dem loving tree hugging brain dead PC zombies thats why!