Lewes Forum thread

David James Smith ( shame be upon him) condemned the Lewes Fireworks Societies as based on a tradition of anti Catholic bigotry .
Not so, historic anti Catholic feeling in England was very far from bigoted .The Pope was behind repeated Catholic funded attempts to invade protestant England not to say assassination attempts on Elizabeth . Papal to encouragement of violence against the English continued as late as the Gunpowder Plot
Fawkes himself was more or less a mercenary but he was planning to ignite 2500kg of gunpowder which would have devastated a 490m radius , the 9.11 of its day
England as we know remained Protestant and with William and Mary and the act of settlement 1701 ,established the constitutional principles that underpin Parliamentary democracy
English anti Catholic feeling had nothing to do with modern sectarianism .The Catholic Church represented the despotism of divine right, the persecution of scientists like Galileo, and a clear military threat to impose a foreign puppet government . No wonder we celebrate thwarting its insane terrorists plots , especially in Lewes where so many of the Marian Martyrs were burnt .
I detect a certain embarrassment creeping in about the original meaning of the fireworks but while it is a fantastic Party and everyone should be included maybe its time to remind ourselves what it was all about in the first place . Freedom . Nothing to be ashamed about , nothing to do with bigotry .

A fine example of the 'Whig interpretation of history' Newmania. There are other interpretations.

We in the Bonfire Societies do not need reminding as to the original and still maintained meanings of our celebrations. It's the ignorant detractors that fail to properly research our reasons for blowing up Pope Paul V.
WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH HIM?

Come on then Clifford, lets hear these other interpretations.

Why should we be embarrased of our past? We should celebrate it because without our past we would have no future! Burn him!

I was brought up a catholic. The major reason I have become less of a religious person in my adult life is that relgion appears to me to have a lot to answer for. It has been behind some of the bloodiest episodes in the history of our planet. Unbelievably this continues right up to this day with modern day terrorism. I know it is, in the main, the fundamenalists and that they are in the minority, nevertheless they cause death and misery throughout the world supposedly in the name of their God.
The Lewes bonfire night is a great evening but please look upon it as just that and enjoy it. Forget what happened hundreds of years ago, that involves bigotry. Northen Ireland every July have thousands on the street marching to celebrate an event that happened almost 400 years ago and every year there are problems with violence. It all seems so ridiculous to me.
Be proud of our history but not to the extent that it causes violence today for happenings that are far in our past.

Here we go again !

What was OK in the Seventeenth Century is not necessarily what is OK today. Otherwise owning slaves and witch burning would still be legal and socially acceptable. It was the legislation that permitted the creation of Catholic bishoprics that led to revival of the Nov 5 celebrations and the formation of Lewes Bonfire Societies. So, in that sense, they were anti-Catholic. But that doesn't mean that they still are today.

I think that all serious Bonfire boys/girls will have already read some (or quite a lot in fact) of history on the subject. History however, is history and whatever you want to believe, what happened happened and you cannot change it just because you don't like it. There is no bigotry in the Lewes celebrations, in fact quite the opposite, as anyone that cares to find out will tell you. To suggest that there is some kind of underlying religious hatred in Bonfire is no different to our local Sunday Times reporter claiming that our town is a hotbed of racism. Both claims made by people who think they know what they are talking about, and as such they think they are qualified to make such sweeping accusations.

Hope my post was not misunderstood, just to clarify I do not believe there is bigotry attached to any part of the Lewes bonfire celebrations.

The celebrations in Northern Ireland commemorate their freedom from a Papal regime, but unfortunately each year there is a steady flow of trouble created by RC's.
Surely (as Lewes Bonfire commemorates the same cause) there should be a degree of empathy extended to our cousins.
Remember, each year sinister forces are at work trying to undermine the 5th (Joe O'Keefe, Patricia Knight, David J Smith etc) and I hope that the 5th does not evolve into having these same problems.

Here here Amazed.

Do you agree with Amazed Newmania? Particularly the bit about the need for Lewes bonfire 'empathy' with the Orange Order in Northern Ireland?

Saw that book by our local celebrated author DJS already discounted to less than half price in clearance sale in a bookshop whilst on hols. What a surprise.

Count me out, Amazed, ta. None of my 'cousins' live in NI

I enjoy the Bonfire celebrations immensely, and understand the history. I have no problem with them burning the Pope. After all he's burnt alongside Blair, Bush Clinton, Brown or whoever. I'm sure almost all of those watching and taking part recognise the tradition as a tradition and don't have an anti-Catholic bigotry themselves. Such sentiment has virtually disappeared in England (except in places like Liverpool perhaps, and it remains in Glasgow in Scotland), but a few years ago at Cliffe one member of the crowd began shouting something like "go up you Protestant Boys, No Surrender!". He might even of said something about "fenians" but I can't remember for sure. While no-one told him to shut up. I got the feeling that most people would rather he had not uttered words that originate the sectarianism of Northern Ireland.

Not sure there is anti catholic bigotry in Liverpool anymore. It more or less died out in the 1970s.

Count me out also Amazed

I have a vague memory of seeing some Orange men trying to join cliff at the fisher street/high street junction, it must have been late 70`s as I was out with my parents,they wore black suits ,bowler hats and orange sashes and were kicked out before they got going .Does anyone else remember this ?

Looks like you're in a minority here Amazed.

Anti catholic feeling still exists in Liverpool, but becomes less obvious as the years pass. 100 years ago sectarian riots would take place throughout the summer. The Tories virtually controlled Liverpool for 100 years from the 1860s to the 1960 due to being the party of the cities protestant majority. They had a pact with another party called the Liverpool Protestant Party. The Liverpool Tories refused to fund catholic schools on the rates, the government had to step in. Also they refused until after the war to select a catholic as Lord Mayor.
However the blitz destroyed the Orange Protestant heatlands, plus the 60s slum clearences, and the fact that people no longer went to Church,meant Liverpool became Labour like all other working class cities. The Orange Lodge can still muster 10,000 marchers and supporters for their annual parade. They no longer have the political or religious power in the city they once had.

No empathy for NI bigots.

We have all heard calls at the bonfire firesite "burn the effing pope" .Remember the "no Floodery" posters in reaction to the towns former RC Priests views on bonfire. A few years back an article on the book "Foxes Protestant Martyrs" appeared in one bonfire societies programme. Is hostility to catholicism different depending which part of the country you live in? I remember talking to a now deceased former Lewes Tory Councillor, whose views re the Church of Rome were very hardline, never stopped him being re elected. If 40% of the people of Lewes were French and wanted Lewes to become part of France, lets not pretend we would have a normal society. Yet 40%of Northern Irelands, population want to bring it down, which is why the Unionists feel the need to exhibit their British Protestant identity.

All residents of Ireland are Irish whether they be north or south of the border, irrespective of whether they accept that. Due to that it must be accepted that as badly as the British treated them for several hundred years it is a fact that more Irishmen have been killed, in the troubles etc over those yaers, than have been killed by the British.
In the distant past it was to gain independance from the British State, post 1922 the cause changed to one of wanting a United Ireland. Wanting to retain and enjoy your heritage is one thing, doing it in a manner in which one knows that it will cause violent situations is quite another. Only the deeply ingrained bigotry of Ireland, on both sides of the border, ensures that blood will continue to flow.
A huge first, but long term, difference would be achieved by banning religious schools. It is beyond belief that in this, the 21st century, young people, going into adulthood, have never spoken, much less met, to a catholic/protestants. Those who believe that is OK leave me speechless.