Lewes Forum thread

Jason Sugarman and the local Conservative association are both regular readers and contributers to this Forum but have ignored requests that instead of making uninvited attacks on our local MP, that they explain why Conservative Councillors were complying with the innaccurate LDC Officer advice that they should not discuss planning matters with residents (their electorate!). This was going on for at least 5 years, interferng with residents rights to be represented, distorting the legality of planning application and was a clear breach of the Code of Conduct,. I can therefore only conclude that Mr Sugarman, and his local association members condone this improper practice.

Good post LTR. Over to you Mr Sugerman.

LTR, isn't this becoming a bit of a broken record? I don't know about the rights and wrongs of this matter but it doesn't seem to me that Sugarman or his local party HQ is any more personally responsible for the conduct of Conservative LDC members than Baker is for the conduct of LibDem LDC members. I sure that that like most councillors (of all parties and none), they defer to officer advice much of the time, and if they got it wrong on this one in the past, so what, can we not move on? Nor, of course, do members of one party normally have to wait for an invitation before commenting on the activities of members of another party.

Can I suggest you take this matter up directly with either LDC or with the leader of the minority group on LDC? I can't see what value there is in keep harping on this issue on the Forum. Nor is there any obligation on anyone criticised on this Forum to respond to that criticism if they choose not to: it's a debating Forum, not an official complaints procedure.

You are free to conclude what you like, but I for one wouldn't be so arrogant as to automatically assume that because someone wasn't responding to criticism, that necessarilly means that the criticism is accepted or that the criticized is unable to respond. Or is everyone answerable to you?

Since this is a Forum, and anyone can ask what they like, your point is..um ...pointless, Off-Message. the reason LTR sounds like a broken record (funny that you should be keeing note) is that there are no answers into something political, that a voter is actually interested in. I always take great interest in questions that officials don't want to answer.I would expect Jason Sugar man, Carola, Norman, and whoever is from the Labour Party to all be concerned about this. Oh, and since the local Conservative Association is directly involved in providing the Councillors on LDC I think that it is far from unreasonable to expect them to have a view on what their nominated reps are doing/not doing. LDC is rotten, so i wouldn't bother with them. We all know it was their solicitor doing the mis-advising in the first place! He got caught out.

But Off-Message, Mr Sugerman so obviously enjoys coming onto the Forum to entertain and inform us that it wouldn't hurt him to come back and just say, 'Yes, I think it was a mistake and I must say Tory councillors won't let them themselves be misinformed like this again.' That would clear the air.

Maybe, but LTR's got an overinflated opinion of himself in expecting it and/or is simply enaging in disingenuous political slurs.

So, Off-Message, LTR has 'got an overinflated opinion of himself' for asking someone who is seeking out votes to answer a question?

No, he's got an overinflated opinion of himself for assuming that he's entitled to put it about that the Tories condone improper practice by choosing not to answer his question on the Forum. As I said, he should write to LDC or to the leader of the minority group on LDC. He would be right then to expect a reply (but in the meantime should shut up about it). If the reply received is unsatisfactory then I wouldn't blame him for publicizing the fact on the Forum.

Not sure why you think I have an inflated opinion of myself? I am very inconsequential. and you have no evidence that I am making a political slur. In fact, ow do you know I am wrong? What is your evidence that the completely silenced Tories don't condone the improper advice I am referring to? You certainly might have a different opinion if you had seen the famous e-mail that was sent round by LDC Lead members, advised by the Legal Dept to disuade all Councillors from attending a public meeting about Lewes House. Half the town has seen it, so perhaps you live elsewhere?
Yes,all parties are as guilty of this as the Tories, but i have asked them first, since they post on here.I asked the question, gave lots of time for the Tories reading this page to respond, and they have avoided doing so. In the absense of an explaination it is reasonable to pressume that the reason why the Tories failed to remedy the mistake, is that they condoned it. I await to hear otherwise. Particularly because most of our Councillors still have a considerable problem communicating with residents.

Off-Message
I am entitled to express my opinion in whatever way I see fit, and it is not for you to instruct me. If the Tories choose to use this Forum as a suitable means of communication, then you can hardly complain about that. They have chosen to use it, and so am I.
You also fail to understand that if Councillors were being advised to to correspond with residents, which they were, then what would be the point of writing to Councillors at LDC!
That is why this Forum is so loved, and so hated by controlling political types...such as yourself?

I don't have evidence that the Tories don't condone improper practice but then no such evidence could possibly exist! Nor am I saying that they don't in fact condone it. I don't know either way, and nor do you. That's my point. So to title your thread 'Tories Condone Improper Practice' is, in the circumstances, a slur. Moreover it's a bit rich to make the assumption that just because the Tories post on here on some subjects, that they're guilty as charged by omission on all other subjects! Surely that means the LibDems are guilty as charged on all subjects! I still don't understand why you don't just write to the relevant officers and/or members at LDC. Then tell us about it if you don't like what they say.

I am sorry you don't understand. You have now made your point. Why don't you follow the course of action you are suggesting rather than telling me what to do, and let us know if you have any success.

As you say LTR, I'm making a suggestion, not issuing an instruction. On my own admission I don't feel as strongly on the question of who was or wasn't acting improperly on the planning committee as evidently you do, I was only challenging your (still) unsubstantiated slur against the Tories.

What a curious post, J. While I share your temptation to want to vote Conservative, I don't take the view that a vote cast for anyone other than the winner is thereby a worthless vote. Voting, and then seeing if your chosen candidate is successful, is all part of it, surely? Where's the sporting spirit?

What a nice polite exchange of views. Thanks for not descending into abusing each other.

I agree Brixtonbelle. It's what happens when you've got posters like LTR and Off-Message who have real opinions and know ho to express them.

I've also seen the famous e-mail, so I've changed the thread name again!
Would be nice to know that they have changed their minds, but the silence indicates not.
Its is very shocking when you realise how our local political types have such contempt for communicating properly with the people they are supposed to be representing. The term "public servants" doesn't apply to the public, you know!

I give up.

Respect. Hopefully someone will post the e-mail that you haven't seen, and you can let us know if the Local Conservatives have changed their view since, as they are so reluctant to express that particular view on here. Which is odd, as they respond to everything else.

LTR, you complain about the Tories failing to acknowledge that over a period of years they followed officer advice which was wrong. In fact LDC councillors of all colours (including the independents) followed this advice until it was corrected and changed. Not to have done so would have laid them open to a number of charges. It was the advice that was wrong not the councillors' response to it. I don't vote Tory for lots of reasons, but this isn't a valid one IMO. Why not ask Jason if he supported the war in Iraq; if he agrees that Conservative MEPs should sit in the same group as some unpleasant East European nationalists; if he supports Osborne's proposal to trigger inflation with a VAT rise and stagnation with swingeing public sector cuts before the economy has recovered sufficiently, if he wants to exempt defence spending from the cuts, if he supports the war in Afghanistan, etc?

Nice to see this finally getting discussed properly.
Yes All political hues were/are still guilty of this, but I happen to ave asked the Tories to explain why they failed to challenge this as they should have done, and if they condone the practice. They are a key party, and should be challenging improper practice very vocally indeed. Why have I asked? .... Because they have chosen to use the Forum as a means of communication,, and because the interference of LDC officers is still going on.. If the Lib Dems/Labour or anyone else want to express their view as to why they accept/ed clearly inaccurate advice from the LDC Legal services dept then I would love to get an explaination. Jason Sugerman is a local Tory activist (apparently) and has claimed he would represent local concerns, and the Local Conservative Party clearly does, so i am throwing the gauntlet down to them to offer an explaination and as yet I haven't got one. So without one, I am pressuming that they condone the practice. I don't think this is unreasonable. They closely scrutinise this Forum, so can correct me at any time if I am wrong. But they haven't.
I am not interested in General Election Issues being confused with this specific subjec. First I want to see our parties build their houses on rock, but to do that they need to start being responsible to the elctorate, and that cannot happen if they are condoning improper advice about communicating with the elctorate.

I think LTR is right on this - the Tories are the opposition on LDC and one of the jobs of an opposition is to keep a close eye on what the ruling party gets up to and to question everything. In one sense the only democracy we have is that there is an opposition able to do this. So, Mr Sugerman, ask your colleagues why they did not question what was clearly a very strange piece of advice from the officers - one, interestingly enough, that served their interests rather than the people's.

LTR and Sherlock, the 'advice' given to councillors was formal. That is, they were being formally warned that it would be improper for them to do something. Yes, it should have been challenged by some of the more savvy councillors as it was by some of us outside. But the other point is that Jason Sugarman is standing for Parliament and not for the Council. He clearly should have a view on local issues, but if elected should leave council matters to the Council (whether it's the same political colour as him or not). I want to hear what he and his Parliamentary colleagues have to say about the economy, defence, Europe etc and not some trivial local issue that was sorted a couple of years ago. Yes, councillors should have been allowed to do their job properly on planning, but they are now and the period when they weren't was regrettable but not the crime of the century.

"One thing that bugs me, I am a conservative and will vote conservative in the election (may 6th). But I feel my vote will mean sod all. Why? because all you Lewesians will vote for Mr Baker making my vote worthless. "
That's the flaw with democracy, I'm afraid, J. If the other lot gets more votes than your lot, your lot loses.

If J is so peed off about the value of his/her vote, s/he should support the PR... and Vote Baker who's party campaigns for it !
On the local/national point - hasn't Sugarman claimed to be a councillor at some point in the past ? Or have I misunderstood what he said in his previous posts ?

Funnily enough Brixtonbelle Mr sugerman says on his website: 'As a Lewes District Councillor, Jason developed a formidable reputation for campaigning on behalf of residents.' On that basis, it is reasonable to ask him to comment on what Tories have done on LDC.

Brixtonbelle, PR would make everyone's vote valueless since it is unlikely any party would get a majority therefore they will decide behind closed doors how to carve up the government and what policies that government will follow. Not to mention how it will allow nutty fringe parties with little support an opportunity to gain power such as UKIP or the Greens